Here is my issue with Late Penalties being applied to student work. If we are going to reduce an entire course worth of work down to one symbol for the purpose of reporting, should we not at the very least ensure that the grade is accurate? Late Penalties lead to inaccuracy, which leads to deflated grades, which distorts the students’ achievement; their true ability to meet the intended learning outcomes. In most jurisdictions (if not all) grades are supposed to reflect the student’s ability to meet the intended learning outcomes of the course they are enrolled in. In my 20 years I have never seen a curriculum guide that had “handing in work on time” as a learning intention. It’s possible that one exists, I’ve just never seen it.
Now don’t get me wrong, I’m all for students meeting set deadlines. It is obviously a great habit to develop that will serve students well as they make the transition to adulthood. I also believe in holding students accountable for deadlines, I just never applied a late penalty. Like “0”, I was the late penalty guy early in my career; “10% per day” was my middle name. Over the years I saw the late penalty as a waste of time. I’d rather support the student than penalize them. 10% is a nice round number and that’s likely the reason we’ve chosen it through the decades as it keeps the math easy! I am not aware of any educational research that proclaims “Late Penalties” as an effective practice…are you? The threat of a penalty is supposed to motivate students into meeting the deadline. Clearly that threat isn’t working as that threat has existed for decades and yet students are still late with assignments.
Here is my position: Students should be graded on the quality of their work (their ability to meet the desired learning targets) rather than how punctual the assignment is. Here’s why:
Some students predictably struggle with deadlines. Once a due date has been given, most teachers can predict which students will be on-time and which students will be late. We know that most students will meet the deadlines. If most don’t, then there is likely a flaw in the assignment. The few that struggle with deadlines need support, not penalties. The other aspect is that we already know (to a certain degree) who is going to be late. Think about that…we can predict they’ll be late, but do we act to ensure the learning and/or assignment is on track? Most students like deadlines and the organization and pacing they provide.
Quality work should trump timeliness. Would you rather a student hand-in high quality work late or poor quality work on-time? Now I know that in an ideal world every student would complete all assignments correctly and hand them in on time, but I choose quality and I think you would too. We have spent far too much time in education focusing on the things that sit on the periphery of learning. Meeting a deadline is a good thing – even a great thing – but it doesn’t have anything to do with how much Math or Social Studies you understand!
The flood is a myth! No, not that flood. The flood of assignments at the end of the year that you think you are going to get; it won’t happen, at least that wasn’t my experience. In fact, in every school I’ve worked in where teachers eliminated their late penalties they did not experience the flood. As I said above, most students like deadlines and not having a late penalty doesn’t mean you don’t set deadlines and act when they are not met; just don’t distort their grade by artificially lowering it.
We don’t ‘add’ for early. When I’ve asked teachers who have late penalties why they don’t add 10% per day for early assignments they usually say something like, “I couldn’t do that. That would inflate their grade and wouldn’t be accurate.” I think they’ve just answered their own question. The exact same logic as to why adding-for-early is not appropriate applies to late penalties; the logic of inaccuracy.
Behavior & Learning must be kept separate. Inaccuracy comes when we start to include student attributes into reporting. Not handing in work on time has nothing to do with what they know; it reflects what they haven’t done.
Ken O’Connor writes:
The punitive nature of the penalty is a powerful disincentive for students to complete any work.”
If I’m a marginal student who barely passes most assignments, why would I even bother doing the work if I’m 3 or 4 days late? I vote for eliminating the penalty altogether, but here are some other suggestions if you insist on keeping your late penalty. After all, I can’t make you change.
- Provide a DUE DATE WINDOW and allow your students to manage their time. Provide a window of a few days or an entire week. Then, after the window closes consider them late.
- Spend MORE TIME IN PREPARATION making sure every student is clear on what to do and how to do it. Students might need exemplars or deeper explanations before they are ready.
- Provide EXTRA SUPPORT AHEAD OF TIME. We know some students struggle with deadlines and it would be irresponsible as a teacher to not act upon that knowledge before it’s too late.
Now, if all of that doesn’t work for you, then here is a late penalty I could support; I don’t like it, but I could support it. 1% per day! If you are like most teachers I’ve suggested this to you will have one of two reactions. One reaction is that, “it’s hardly worth the effort so why bother.” EXACTLY! The other reaction is, “that’s not tough enough!”
The second reaction usually reveals the real motive behind the penalty; that for students to comply with deadlines we need to toughen up on them. Just like with “0”, the punishment paradigm will never produce the academic epiphany. Making school less pleasant through artificial penalties has never inspired students to exceed expectations.
I set deadlines, but I negotiated deadlines if students came in advance. I held students responsible for deadlines and reacted NOW if a deadline wasn’t met. I contacted parents if deadlines were consistently being missed or avoided, but I DIDN’T PENALIZE STUDENTS in the GRADE BOOK! I accepted late work, but I never got the flood at the end of the year!
So…enough with the late penalties already and let’s put our focus back on learning!
You raise some very interesting points. In an ideal world every student would get their assignment in on time, but that is not the case. As you articulated, there are often reasons that the assignment comes in late and a conversation usually clears things up. For the students who chronically hand in assignments late there are underlying issues that need to be addressed, hopefully with parental support. How many of us at some point had to speak with their teacher and get an extension?
With all this being said, there is a mark for late work- it is called work habits, G, S, N. The letter grade is supposed to reflect the child’s knowledge and understanding of the subject, not their ability to time manage, their desire to complete assignments nor their willingness to ask for support. There is a reason why the two are kept separate. Like you said, a struggling student will just give up if they know they are going to be handing in the assignment late and there are stiff penalties.
Society to a certain degree has determined that letter grades are far more important and work habits are not as valued as they should be. Perhaps we need to re-evaluate those priorities, but the works habits are clearly articulated for those interested in looking.
Thanks for your comments, Remi. I always wanted students to meet deadlines with quality work, but that, as you’ve pointed out, doesn’t always happen. The work habit is exactly where being late should be addressed. I agree, we have to raise the profile and priority of work habits. I think we are partly to blame as I’m not sure we collectively spend as much time thinking about the WH as we do the grades (knowing that many individuals do). Late penalties are punitive and I think they send the wrong message about what’s important. Thanks for taking the time to comment.
You make some powerful arguments. I can relate to your journey. When I began teaching in junior high five years ago, I was on the 10% a day bandwagon. Now, I have stopped making enforcing the late penalty and I actually have more assignments turned in on time. (I don’t know if it’s related, but it’s true.) I also have much less recordkeeping because I don’t have to keep track of each day it’s late. Good topic for discussion, and a good post to get the conversation going.
Denise
Thanks Denise. Keeping track was an issue for me too back in the day. I bet there is a connection to more work/no penalty. By focusing on learning your students are likely more prepared to complete the work/learn, etc. I think these conversations are vital…I’m glad I could contribute to the conversation. Thanks for taking the time to comment!
Tom, nice post on a very two-sided topic. From numerous conversations, there are a lot of die-hards for both sides of the coin. You identified both and spoke to both, fairly, but also pointed out the real goals of education. I admit I was on the late penalty thing years ago but had the same thoughts you did and employ many of the changes you have. This entry is great to get educators thinking of the two schools of thought on a crash course.
@bsoong
It’s a tough one. People on both sides believe very strongly on the issue. My bias is no penalty, however, if teachers insist on a penalty I think there are things that we can do to avoid the lateness (as I outlined in the post). Important discussions…my hope was that my post might open the door for some to begin. Thanks Bernie. I appreciate you taking the time to comment.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by nndsbso and Justin Tarte, tomschimmer. tomschimmer said: New Post: "Enough with the Late Penalties already!" Some thoughful comments so far! http://bit.ly/f0CRGU #bced #grading #edchat [...]
A great follow-up from yesterday’s post on the great Zero Controversy. Full disclosure: I am still the 10% per day guy. Yet another one of my ruts that you are pulling into the light, forcing reflection on.
Let me run with my “old-school” habits for a moment, though. Using a potential real-world example, I’d love to hear your thoughts on how this could translate back to the classroom moments you mention above.
Let’s say I work for a high-powered marketing firm. I’ve been hired recently, and I am starting to feel teh pressures of the job. A big deadline is approaching – 5 pm today – and I’m not ready. 5:01 – I didn’t send the file. Crap.
Next morning, I walk into my boss’ office…
Tom, here’s my “devils-advocate” question for you: what does the boss say? Do I get a “don’t worry about it, just make sure you meet the next deadline,” or do I get the “you just lost the firm a multi-million dollar contract. You’re fired!”
In my heart, I hear and believe what you are saying about the late penalty not assessing what the student learned. In my head, though, I hear the boss placing the pink sip on my desk.
Is there a connection between these two examples? And, if so, how can we best rectify the issue so as to provide a more authentic experience for our students?
Thanks for getting my brain all riled again! Can’t wait for the next post…
Thanks Tony…very tough questions. Here’s what I might say. First, I think we grow into expectations and responsibility. There is a lot of space between being 15 and having a multi-million dollar contract in my hands. My boss would either KNOW I was able to handle it or would have set softdeadlines to check in with me if I was over my head. I think would have proved my trustworthiness over time through smaller projects. You probably would get fired, however, you’d probably be 30, 35, 40….not 15. We MAKE them do Math; you CHOSE to work for the company. The students don’t have a mortgage, family, debt, riding on the job…I could go on. Think about the maturity difference in most of us between HS grad and college…for me it was huge!
To be clear…the onlydifference between what I suggest and most others is I kept it out of the gradebook…that’s it. The last paragraph is what I did. I was all over deadlines…intervening, supporting, coaching…i just didn’t penalize the grade; I addressed it with the work habit…especially if it was frequent. I think where I can be misunderstood on this issue is when I say no penalty people take that as no accountability…couldn’t be farther from the truth. I just think the penalty is punitive and I’m not into that. It distorts the grade and miscommunicates to parents how their children are doing. For me, accuracy matters so i want the grade to reflect what they know, not what they haven’t done.
I hope that helps. Thanks for your thoughtful comments!
I agree whole-heartedly.
I just had a conversation with someone about this exact topic. People make the dead line at work analogy a lot. It really isn’t exactly the same. While school is preparing students for the real world, they aren’t actually in the real world just yet,and school is their training ground where they can make mistakes and learn.Where we can identify areas that need improvement.
Giving a zero or a mark deduction, is punitive and only serves to gratify the teacher, like a parent who slaps a child in frustration. Giving a zero or deduction is not going to suddenly help someone with time management or organizational skills. Marks are not always motivators for students either. Also, like you said it skews the measurement of the task objective, which is what do they know about a particular topic.
Parents who claim it is unfair to the other children who do hand their work in on time, should mind their own business and not be comparing their child to anyone else.If a student had difficulty reading and took longer to complete a reading assignment, would you deduct marks? No, you would do what you could to help them.
Usually, students who hand in late assignments struggle with organization and time management. They also may struggle with the subject matter. It is an opportunity for the teacher to help the student improve their learning skills to be accountable and successful down the road.
I also agree that the comparison to the workplace is not a direct one. Maturity is a major factor, as well as the nature of the job. Also, one is to assume, that people will pursue careers in areas in which they excel and therefore may be less inclined to struggle with completing work in a timely fashion. For example, handing in a history essay versus completing technical blueprints for a given design in the workplace.
Thanks for your comments Jenny. We are obviously on the same waive length and you bring up some interesting analogies. Thanks for taking the time.
Tom
We’ve separated our marks into “approaches to learning” and “summative” strands, which means that students can get penalized in their “approaches to learning” (or coachability) mark, but not their summative mark.
I also make sure that for a student who is habitually late on a number of assignments I would involve their parents, send them to study hall, or some other consequence related to their behaviour, but not their (summative) mark.
Their mark is a carrot we hold in front of students. When you penalize students by reducing their mark, you are essentially giving them a smaller carrot. For some students, they will work less hard because they feel like either they don’t deserve such a nice carrot (grade) or that the carrot (grade) you’ve given them is good enough.
I still have students not handing in assignments on time, but at least I feel like I can do something about it rather than ending the story with a lower mark.
Thanks David. Agree with it all. I love the separation, involving parents, study hall, etc. It doesn’t prevent it all, but at least we are not giving them an excuse to blame us…”you lowered my grade, not me.” Some students will be late, but penalizing them is just too easy. Our job is to do something about and not apply artificial punitive measures! I appreciate you taking the time to comment!
Awesome post Tom, and I am on the exact same page as you (see my post from a couple of months ago–far less eloquent but on the same wavelength).
http://thelearningnation.blogspot.com/2010/11/docking-student-paychecks.html
In talking to colleagues around our district and around the province, it is encouraging to see that there is a move in this direction to get rid of one of the most toxic grading practices (to use Douglas Reeves’ term). However, we still have a long ways to go.
If a student is handing things in late, I feel it is important to develop a relationship with that student so that we can actually understand WHY turning in work on time is an issue. As well, for our ‘promising learners’ who struggle with deadlines in general, the easiest thing is for them not to do the work at all. Marks do not motivate these students. But if they have a positive and meaningful relationship with their teacher and their class, they are much more likely to do the work.
Thank you for reminding us that marks are not a management tool.
Thanks Cale. I will definitely check out your post. I think it’s ALL about the relationships and the messages we send with everything we do. Marks are not a motivator, especially for low achievers. We need more support, more inclusively, and more compassion. I think late penalties are about power and control which is so disconnected form what we now know about learning.
Thanks for your comments Cale and your positive comments on Twitter!
Thanks for the comments Tom, you bring up some insightful thoughts that have been a topic of conversation on our staff as we have batted around this issue in working to develop a school grading policy. While we have come to some agreement on certain aspects of grading, the whole issue of zeros has been a contested one. Many on our staff value the sense of protecting the student who takes the initiative to meet a deadline and feel that in many ways it is one way to teach a real life lesson by having a small penalty while still ensuring students get the work done. How has this conversation evolved on your staff?
My thoughts…we can’t assume that all students who miss deadlines lack initiative. Sure, some might. Others,however, didn’t really know what to do or didn’t understand the material. There are a lot of reasons. I think we have to dig deeper and find out why the deadline was missed. If it’s chronic, then we should intervene with more intensity before the deadline instead of waiting and then acting surprised that they are “late again.” For me it’s just the penalty. We continued to talk about responding quickly when a deadline is missed…parents, study hall, admin…just not penalty. My role was to support the staff in their attempts…if students blew off the teacher then i would support, call parents, etc. It’s all about creating new routines of response that don’t include a punitive distortion of achievement. Hold them accountable in every other way, except the penalty.
Thanks for taking the time to comment Scott!
Brilliant!
I’m a principal now, but I wrote this regarding when I was a teacher:
“As a teacher, I don’t take any marks off for something coming in late. It is my job to make sure that students demonstrate their learning and meet the learning outcomes during the year. All time lines within the year are arbitrary (and usually teacher determined) and not a requirement worthy of penalty. Exceptions may be made where either Personal Planning or Goal Setting are part of the outcomes.”
This post goes down as the best argument to banish the unjustifiable use of marks as a behavior management tool that I have ever seen… thank you!
Thanks David. Uh…I would like to invite you to comment on all of my posts!!!
Seriously, thank-you for your kind words and feedback. I do recognize that it takes time for many of us (me included) to come to terms with what to do instead. Accountability, yes; Penalty, not for me.
I like the “timelines are arbitrary” comment a lot.
Thansk again!
Well stated, but you are preaching to the converted here.
I believe that being flexible, recognizing diverse learning needs, creating connections, creating a safe environment, meeting students where they are, and helping them move forward is the way to go. I’ve found that teaching students this way makes things like giving zeros, and penalties for late work unfathomable.
“School” is not the real world. Where in the real world are you collected into peer groups (based on your age) and packed into a building to be taught a curriculum you’ve had little to no say in, and then assigned a grade? “School” is the last chance to be a child, not the first chance to be an adult.
Keep spreading the word Tom!
Thanks Mark…unfathomable is how I feel too. Once you make the paradigm shift form “tasks” to “leaning” so much of what we’ve always done doesn’t make sense anymore. “Last chance to be a kid” is a great way to put it. We try to rush kids into adult-like experiences yet we don’t account for their relative immaturity and lack of life experience.
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I know I will be quoting you on the last chance/first chance quote!
As everyone has already mentioned, I too found the points made to be very relevant and thought provoking. As Mr. Celini wrote, I currently am a 10%/day guy too – but maybe not to the same extent. I provide a Due Date for students (when work is expected) and a Dead Date for students (after which students receive a penalty). This sounds similar to the “window” idea discussed in the body.
The question I have is if a student submits work after graded work has been released to students, what’s to stop the late student from “being inspired” by the work (and comments) of another student?
I completely agree that late penalties assess behaviour rather than understanding, but does copied work reflect understanding? For example, I am creating a poster identifying the parts of a cell and their functions. I complete my work on time while my friend does not. Since there is no consequence for my friend turning in his (or her) work late, he (or she) waits for the teacher to grade my work and then uses that to produce his (or her) own assignment. How fair is that to me? I put in the effort and my friend will have the opportunity to best me by taking advantage of my work and the feedback it received. My friend is not demonstrating a better understanding of the content than me, they’re identifying a flaw in the system – aren’t they? Is there something we can do to prevent this from happening – especially in an academically competitive environment?
Thanks!
Thanks Brett. I think the biggest misunderstanding I have encountered over the years is when I say “no penalty” it is implied that there is “no consequence.” I see a huge difference. I want accurate grades; late penalties distort achievement so I can’t support them. However, there are immediate consequences to late work…natural consequences. I responded almost immediately…kept students in, supported them, figured out what it would take to help them get the assignment done. Most students would say, “Can I bring it tomorrow?” to which I’d say “of course.” For those that are chronic the penalty won’t fix the problem.
I also think everyone should be ale to take the feedback from everyone and improve upon their learning…isn’t that what learning is about. We collectively put to much emphasis on “when” students learn as opposed to “if” or “how much.” (my opinion). The focus on “learning” makes some of our preconceived ideas about school irrelevant.
Thansk for your comments!
Such a clear and moving statement of the flaws in the penalites system, Tom!
This is a discussion I have engaged in with colleagues from the day I entered teaching. I have never believed in penalties for late work. Althought time is linear, it is probably the only thing that is. Sir Ken Robinson describes learning as organic and we all go through the journey at different rates and with a variety of supports required. Students do well if they can- and I would argue that when they aren’t doing well, it is our responsibility to get to the root of the reason they are not doing well. Ross Greene highlights the lagging skills that prevent students from meeting with success- and work habits and study skills certainly fall within the executive functioning and thinking skills areas.
My goal as an educator is to ensure that all my students meet with success- which is defined by their parameters of success not necessarily mine. The skill set they present with is what we work with to build and grow using their strengths to support their areas of need. Fair is not everyone getting the same- it is everyone getting what they need.
Thanks Trish…very thoughtful. I totally agree, fair is not equal. What’s fair is everyone getting what they need, as you say. One of my colleagues often says, “between us and the kids, we’re the only ones being paid!” It is our job to get tot he root of the problem and try to help them breakthrough their challenges. Thanks for taking the time to comment, Trish!
[...] A hat tip to Tom Schimmer for his inspirational post, “Enough with the Late Penalties!“ [...]
Great post with a lot to discuss!
From the teacher workload viewpoint, I don’t like the extra work of tracking late penalties. But I also don’t like the work of grading late assignments that trickle in. (As you’re aware, you get into a “rhythm” with a pile of grading but have to shift mental gears to grade the odd ones later.) I think you choose your poison with either of these, probably a wash. But I echo Brett’s question: Is late work “worth” on-time work if a student has access to what you’ve already graded? (quotes deliberate, help me out here)
And what about higher ed? Freshmen? Sophomores? When, IF EVER, should students start acting like business people who might be fired for late work? Should faculty be the ones to instill this… quality in students?
It is frustrating when work trickles in, which is why I always reacted immediately. I wanted to make sure the work was finished in a timely manner. It’s also hard to comment on Higher Ed since every professor is different. I know of some (Tom Guskey) who allow corrections, second chances, etc. so we can’t really say, “when you get to college.” I don’t believe the “real-world” is as cut-throat as we think. I have worked with many teachers who have been late to work, had to leave early, turned in grades late, etc. without any penalty…no 10% pay deduction for that day. My challenge is that we have had late penalties or decades and yet students continue to turn in late…clearly it isn’t producing the desired result for all students.
I know it’s not easy…we have to find the right balance, for sure. I just think the idea of penalizing kids in the grade book completely misses the mark.
Thanks for taking the time to comment!
Thanks for the thoughtful post, Tom. What a refreshing read after a conversation with an online teacher who not only won’t allow students to post anything late, but then hides the discussion from them, taking away any chance for late-comers to at least benefit from the dialogue they missed. Sigh. She finds that hiding the posts keeps students from asking for partial points, and “arguing” with her that they should get some credit. I don’t know how to convince someone with these adamant beliefs to try something different…what’s the first step?
May I come and teach in your school?
No disrespect intended to the other teacher, but I wonder sometimes why we convince ourselves that the measures we put in place are right when they can have such a detrimental impact on our relationships with the students we’re supposed inspire. We say learning matters, but our actions sometimes don’t match.
The first step we took in our schools was to talk about the paradigm shift from tasks to learning. We also talked a lot about confidence. Teaching is about confidence, and when you get that you’ll see everything through a different lens. We began to ask ourselves about how each practice we employed impacted student confidence. For this post, we would ask, “How does applying late penalties contribute to building student confidence?” Of course, it doesn’t. When you ask that question you will see that there are a lot of things we “choose” to do that don’t make a lot of sense.
Thanks for taking the time to comment.
Hey Tom!
I spoke to you on Twitter about “fluffy” dates, but I’ve actually been thinking about this topic further since your post. Doesn’t your same rule apply to extra credit?
You see, I’m not a big fan of extra credit. My teachers in my district give extra credit at the beginning of class for hand sanitizers and tissues. I feel this is rewarding a student for nothing related to academics and therefore inflating the grade. I can see how giving a student a task or above and beyond assignment may result in extra credit, but not for HS and T. I’ve never been brave enough to question anyone about this issue. I understand everyone had budget woes and this is one way to get the supplies necessary for the classroom. But by doing so, a student grade isn’t reflective of what they have learned.
Penny for your thoughts?
Quite simply, I’m not a fan of extra credit for the same reason…accuracy. I think you are bang-on; extra credit “inflates” grades the same way late penalties “deflate” grades. Grades should, at the very least, be accurate and extra credit doesn’t contribute to that and the grade, as you say, is not reflective of what they have learned.
I’m not trying to suck the fun out of school by sounding so clinical. I had a lot of fun with my students, but that doesn’t mean it increased their grades. Grading is grading; it serves a narrow purpose and we need to respect that purpose without distorting what we report, especially when we have to take an entire year’s worth of work and report it in 1 or 2 symbols. Accuracy and clarity are #1 for me…always.
Thanks for your comments.
Thanks for inspiring the blog post Tom. I just commented on my own post, but thought I’d share the link I provided here with you as well:
“The appropriate penalty for missing work, is getting the work done” ~ Dr. Douglas Reeves
Cheers!
Thank you for this article I has given me even more to think about when it comes to how I grade. I teach Drafting which is very technical, and has a steep learning curve. I am at a college, and my main concern is preparing students for work.
When I first started teaching I would accept late assignments until the last week. I noticed that students that fell behind would stay or fall further behind. This lead to them not being able to practice the new concepts and commands until a week after I had gone over them, and then they had an even harder time. I implemented a policy that gave them 2 weeks late to turn in an assignment, and deducted 15% per week. I felt that this would give them the sense of urgency to turn things in on time. I have justified the policy to myself and to students by saying that if they are 2 weeks behind they should work on the new assignments so that they could get more points, and that they would use the previous skills on the new assignments. This leads into your previous post about zeros. I think I was also trying to cut down the added work of grading late assignments like George had mentioned.
Over the last several years I have been thinking about ways to make my grades more about their knowledge at the end, and not about tasks. I hadn’t even thought about addressing my late policy until I read your post.
This blog is now on my daily reading list.
Thanks for taking the time to comment, James. the fact that you say my blog is your daily reading is very much appreciated. As I said in both posts, accuracy is compromised when grade include “other” attributes besides learning. Everyone I know who has made these changes hasn’t regretted it, however, it does take time to grow into the new routines so be patient with yourself, do what you feel you can do right away, and then move yourself along the continuum. Thansk again! Tom
Tom, your constructive points are good (like providing a time window for a deadline instead of one specific time), but the premises are *really* off. Doesn’t anyone else smell the false logic, I’m wondering. I’m only finding fault in the following, nothing constructive here… but I must because of the *logical* absurdities I see.
“I have never seen a curriculum guide that had ‘handing in work on time’ as a learning intention.” But then, no-one had “communicating to the instructor what you know” as a learning objective either…? So can we question the practice of evaluations? “Not cheating” has never been a learning goal, so we can ask why we have cheating policies in place…?
“The threat of a penalty… isn’t working as that threat has existed for decades and yet students are still late with assignments.”
People are threatened with parking tickets as an incentive to follow the rules but tickets still keep getting issued…? Sarcasm apart, this just isn’t a valid logical point! For the students who *do* turn in their work on time, the “threat” has worked. I’ve seen it quite often, and I suppose you have too: Students working late into the night on the day(s) just before the deadline. That’s proof of the “threat” working, or is it not?
“Meeting a deadline is a good thing… but it doesn’t have anything to do with how much Math or Social Studies you understand!”
But it does! “If I understand considerably less, I’ll take considerably longer to tackle the asignment.” That is the connection.
Also: “If I understand math very well, the test will be a piece of cake, and I’ll be *able* to hand it in early.” How does an argument about this arise?
“(A bonus for early submissions would) inflate their grade and wouldn’t be accurate… The exact same logic as to why adding-for-early is not appropriate applies to late penalties…”
Early vs. late is “You can do it” versus “You can’t do it.” If you turn it in on time, OR three days early, it comes to the same: “Yes, you could do it.” No extra points there. If you turn it in late, it comes to “No, you couldn’t do it.” So you lose points. What could be simpler?
Thanks for taking the time to comment; for obvious reasons I don’t agree. Late penalties distort the accuracy of grades. That’s it for me. I’m not into punishing kids in the gradebook…not my thing and never really saw the desired results back when I used to do it. If that’s what you do, then I’m sure you can construct a justification for it and I’m sure I can’t convince you otherwise. Learning is more important to me. Penalities, from where I sit, are about exerting power.
Great response Tom!
Here is the graphic I used in my post that you inspired… I don’t think in needs explanation.
Cheers!
Thanks David!
http://pairadimes.davidtruss.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Late-What-Matters-More.jpg
That idea, David, about asserting power thru penalties, is an unfortunate reality. A good number of instructors I’ve been under (and teachers I’ve worked with) speak about penalties as though it were their privilege and the student’s loss.
Penalties have worked for me (as learner and as instructor); the reasons David Truss mentions on his blog are a good summary. Instructors need to guard against it becoming an attitude/power thing!
[...] late homework, disagrees with Tom Schimmer, who argues that late penalties are a mistake because quality is more important than punctuality. Once a due date has been given, most teachers can predict which students will be on-time and which [...]
I need Help!!!!
Tom, I completely agree but how can I get this accross to my son’s teacher. He is taking a high school biology course in 8th grade. He is an exemplary student who received A’s in the first two school semesters and even an A on the midterm. This last quarter he had three assignments averaging 99.6 then the class did an assignment that was graded in class and he got a 97% the teacher did not collect till 7 days later. My son had left it at home. Although there was proof the assignment was done on time, she still gave him two zeros. Those two zeros brought his GPA down to 59.6 F+. The teacher refuses to compromise, I even suggested giving him half credit with a detention. The principal was no help. The district says UFT contract allows her to set her own class rules. What can I do to help my son?
Hi Louisa – Thanks for commenting. Not knowing the specifics of your son’s situation makes it difficult to give specific solutions to a hypothetical situation, however, here are some thoughts.
Somewhere there must be a district or state policy that says that a student’s letter grades are to reflect his/her ability to meet the leanring outcomes of the course they are enrolled in. I suppose that if the curriculum doesn’t have penalties and punctuality as a learning outcome you could challenge the validity of the grade. What the teacher did, assuming it is as you describe, in my opinion is ridiculous, mean-spirited, and unethical. I would want to know what her motive was; what is it she thinks she is accomplishing by grading that way. If she says to teach him a lesson then I would tell her that the lesson wasn’t learned and that her goal fell short. What he HAS learned is that his teacher is unreasonable in taking a stand on something completely unrelated to your son’s learning. You will/can obviously say these things in the right way given the context and relationship you have. It would be counter-productive for you to become like herin an attempt to rectify the situation. The contract may say what you’ve said, but that doesn’t mean she can do WHATEVER she wants…check state policy, teacher code of ethics, appeal to the district level…whatever you need to do. Again, my disclaimer is I don’t know where you are and what the other side of the story is, however, if it were me I wouldn’t stop until the teacher realized that power and control over children…even teenagers….is exactly the WRONG reason why someone should get into education! Good luck!
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[...] Enough with the Late Penalties! [...]
[...] This post was Twitted by teachforever09 [...]
[...] in February, Tom Shimmer outlined some of the arguments against late penalties in a post, and they reflect the main argument I’ve heard again and again: students should be [...]
Hi Tom. This is a topic I think about a lot, and I have written a post responding to your thoughts here:
http://siobhancurious.wordpress.com/2011/08/29/late-penalties/
I have not read all the comments here, but I was struck by your description of consequences (vs. grades): “I kept students in, supported them, figured out what it would take to help them get the assignment done.” In your post you also mention contacting parents.
As a college teacher, I can’t keep students in. I can’t contact their parents. I see them for only four hours a week (if they show up for class). The same principles you outline here apply to my students’ learning, but I rarely have the relationship with them that a primary/secondary teacher could have. Do you have suggestions for what kind of “support” I can offer my students instead of penalizing them?
when a child gives in homework late and it is accepted by the teacher with no penalties isn’t that in a way unethical and unfair to the other student that did work to hand it in on time? what do you think would be a good argument against the argument that its unethical to accept late homework because it is not fair to the other students? and that if they knew that the teacher accepted it late they may see a laxity in the teacher and think that they can take advantage in the future.
Thanks for commenting. From my perspective, the “unethical” and “unfair” argument makes two erroneous assumptions: 1) that all students can/should achieve the desired learning at exactly the same time and (2) that school is about comparing one student to another, and (3) that the students who miss deadlines didn’t try hard enough. I also know the false assumption many make is that when I write “no penalties” I mean “no deadlines” which is completely false. I set deadlines, held students responsible for deadlines, followed-up with them if deadlines were missed in a timely manner…I just didn’t penalize them because I didn’t want to compromise the accuracy of their grade. You can say a lot of things, but the one thing no one can claim is that their grades are “accurate” if they are applying a penalty (or a zero for that matter) to work that isn’t on time.
When I eliminated the penalty from my own classroom, not much changed. The students who typically handed things in on time still did; the students who I knew struggled with deadlines still did. The penalty, in essence, had very little effect on them. I can’t promise you won’t have a student who will try to take advantage of the policy, however, they can only take advantage if you let them…hold them accountable to the deadline. My students were overwhelming positive and productive in response to the changes I made. Why would a struggling student complete any work after 4 or 5 days? If they barely pass with full credit, losing 40%-50% would prove to be a powerful disincentive to completing the work…they will end up with the same grade/score whether they do it or not.
In the end, I decided that threatening penalties was not the kind of teacher I wanted to be. I wanted to focus on learning and report accurate progress toward the intended learning goals.
Tom, with the latest entry from jag42, you’re going for “world’s oldest active blog post” here. I have just shared this with an active group of educators over on Google Plus (Google+). FYI, this is a great topic for undergrads to write about. They’ve been in the business at least 13 years, they must have an opinion!
Google+ post is at: https://plus.google.com/103316555196135859733/posts/fRiwxJ1Bjkx
So true! I don’t know about a record, but I’m still surprised that it is still being read and commented on. Thanks for sharing the post with others and thanks for taking the time to comment. I agree…undergrads could and should be a great resource in terms of “current thinking” of our students…they have the most recent experience.
Tom
I have a question: do you “announce” that there are no deadlines to students? How do you handle that? Is it something like, “This is due on x, but don’t worry if you can’t do it by then, just get it in.” ? I’m curious how students react to that freedom. Speaking from my experience (admittedly years ago), knowing I would not get penalized, I would have taken full advantage of that to manipulate my overall workload and priorities. Do you find students don’t really do that?
So, the biggest misrule of the “no late penalties” is thinking “no deadlines.” I set deadlines, held students responsible for deadlines, contacted parents if it was chronic, etc. I did everything I had always done except apply the penalty. As far as being manipulated, I’m sure most adults are fairly astute at recognizing when students are trying to take advantage of any opportunity. For me, that would violate what I would call the “social contract” between the students and I. I actually felt I was holding students more accountable for learning. A struggling learner has absolutely no reason to do the work after 3 or 4 days of “10% per day off.” If their “best” work is barely a pass, and you’re going to deduct 30-40%, why in the world would they invest any effort in producing high quality work? The very few students who tried to take advantage were dealt with as individuals; the rest really appreciated the non-punitive approach. They believed me when I said “I was on their side!”
Thanks for taking the time to comment! Tom
Dear Tom,
There are many teachers who work in places where the zero for the missed assignment is not an issue and so is the late assignment thing. In these countries students work solely towards success in high stakes all or nothing summative assessments like GCSE or A’Levels in the UK or CSE and CAPE in the Caribbean. Very few institutions pay attention to grades assigned in school. Its all about feedback and getting ready for the mother of all exams. “Senioritis” is completely foreign! Yes it is different from Provincial or state exams.
I listened to you in Shanghai over the last couple days and I realized that your entire thesis is based on the classic North American public school system. As far as I am concerned the grades in that system are pure rubbish. Many of my average students in Trinidad have gone to school on the USA and Canada and suddenly end up on the honor roll. I can tell you this.. the grades may be broken but they certainly build up a kids ego! So inflate away after all its all about CONFIDENCE the rest is just details. I must say that did enjoy your presentation and I learnt from it!!
Thanks
Dan
Hi Dan,
I do appreciate you taking the time to comment and I’m glad you enjoyed the two days. It is about confidence, but confidence steeped in reality…artificial ego-boosts are counter-productive over the long run. Grounded optimism and self-efficacy are what we need to develop.
Thanks again!
Tom
Hi Tom,
Read this in the telegraph and wondered what you would make of it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/secondaryeducation/9233517/A-level-overhaul-to-halt-rampant-grade-inflation.html
I think the Brits need some advice from you on this. What do you think? Should we have summative assessments at the end of each module and allow multiple repeats. That is what they have and they want to dump it and revert to a giant summative test at the end of a two year course. Obviously they have no place for discussions on late penalties and homework grades but they have problems all the same.
Hi Tom
What fantastic points you make about late penalties. I completely agree with you when you say each child’s situation is different and fair is not equal. The whole point of the student going to school is so they meet the curriculum requirements at the end of the year – so, if at the end of the year they have passed the curriculum requirements it doesn’t make a difference when in the year they achieved this. The whole point of the students doing the class is for students to pass at the end of the year.
I have recently finished my degree and would often shake my head at my school’s rules for late assignments – being that if they are late the student gets 0 and would fail the course. However, the school thought it was absolutely fine when they were late in marking the assignments and thought a simple email apology was sufficient. I found this double standard extremely frustrating when I was the one paying to do the course (a considerable sum of money I might add) and they were the ones being paid.
I believe late penalties are an old fashioned idea from another day and age, it is based on a perfect world theory and it doesn’t apply to real life. I have been working for 15 years and recently I postponed an assessment I had to do for a work course. My manager was fine with this and I certainly didn’t get fired for not being prepared by the date set. (I’d also like to add I work for one of the biggest companies in the world.)
Thank you Tom for taking the time to write this post and encouraging others to be more open minded and to stop trying to enforce an old fashioned idea that doesn’t achieve anything but demotivate a student.
Regards
Louise
Hi Louise,
Thanks for taking the time to comment. I never thought of the “double-standard” you mention above… interesting perspective! Life is fluid and doesn’t align with some of the stiff rules we put in place…especially the rules we put in place for students. It seems, at times, that we almost want to hold students to a higher standard than we hold ourselves.
Tom
Tom,
I love your information. I was wondering, and since this is a big argument against no penalties, do students find out about the no-penalties-policy and decide to wait until the last chance to turn in work? Do you end up with a mountain of grading at the end of each quarter because you don’t have late penalties?
thanks.
I told my students both what and why I was changing my practice and rarely (there were a couple) had students try to take advantage. Remember that “no late penalties” doesn’t mean “no deadlines.” I did everything else I used to do except the penalty. Most students like/need deadlines to keep their lives organized. The other aspect is that every practice – no penalties – requires a new routine, so think about how you will follow-up with missed deadlines in order to support the students in completing the assignment, etc.
What I really noticed is that the profile of my students didn’t change with/without the threat of a penalty. Those who struggled with deadlines still struggled; those who didn’t still turned in assignments on time. What I found for the vast majority of my students is that the threat of a penalty made no difference to whether they did/did not finish on time.
Thanks for taking the time to comment.
Tom
I’m a Junior in high school and I completely agree with you. Some of my teacher’s do teach with this philosophy in mind, and I love it. However, I have a problem and I would like your advice. I missed 3 weeks of school in a row this year because I was sick, then my family traveled to Vietnam. I got really behind in all my classes considering the fact that I have 3 AP Classes and lots of extracurricular activities including theatre (which takes up my entire life). In English I talked to my teacher frequently about my make up work and the last time I talked to her she told me that as long as I got it turned in before the end of the year I’d be fine. I wanted to turn it in all together which I realize now was a mistake so I turned it in today, and the end of the year is tomorrow. She said since I had only given her one day to grade it she would only give me half credit. I’m really nervous now because there’s only 1 day of school left, and I worked extremely hard on all that work, and I really hope she reads it and realizes that it’s much higher quality work than most other student’s in her class have turned in. It took me so long because of how busy I was and because I prioritized my AP classes, and because she said I could turn it in later. What should I do?